November 19, 2007 at 10:01 am #57058
I bought a new water pump (Milodon Al high flow) that uses no backing plate. It is the correct left hand outlet type, and listed for 65/66 Ford 289 but my question is, will it work correctly in the standard Tiger timing cover ?
November 19, 2007 at 6:21 pm #61735Tom and Kathy CalvertParticipant
I do not have direct experience with the Milodon pump.
However the 260 and early 289 used the same water pump. I am sure the pump will physically bolt up, but the bosses on the pump for acessories may be different.
Don’t forget to press the fan mounting flange back to the correct dimension so that the belt pulleys line up properly.
November 19, 2007 at 7:11 pm #61738Tom and Joanne EhrhartParticipant
In my experience NO. We tested the HiVol Milodon pump in our cooling tests. I do not have the exact model # at the moment. It has a much longer body and moving the hub flange back still won’t make up for the problem. It will make the fan too close to the rad. We had to make all kinds of mounting concessions to make that pump fit.
To make matters worse it does NOT help cooling. Check out our cooling data in the tech tips section of TEAE.org. If you can, send it back. Use a stock water pump. There is NO VALUE to using a high volume water pump in street driving applications, if that is where you are headed. We tested two high vol pumps. Milodon and Stewart neither improved cooling.
November 19, 2007 at 10:04 pm #61740alpine-64Participant
How far should the fan be mounted from the radiator?
Has anyone looked into the electric water pumps?
November 21, 2007 at 12:17 pm #61744
Tom, many thanks for your reply. I was unaware of your article on the main website, which looks very thorough, and I shall now devour with great interest.
On Googling around, I have found some favourable reports on the Milodon pumps, and nothing unfavourable, so your report is an interesting comparison. One reason may be differences in the vehicles, ie it may work well enough for example in a Mustang or kit car. Just an observation: the picutre of the Milodon pump shows what looks like a backing plate, which I think should not be fitted on these pumps.
On both the performance, and the fitting, I just wonder if you might have had a pump designated for a 351W or a different timing cover than that in the Tiger? There are quite a few different models. I have checked mine and I think it should fit OK. The distance to the flange measures 13.2cm which is surprisingly close to spec (13cm).
When I bought my car, there was a pump problem. The flange had apparently not been pressed into the correct position, and it broke a fan belt on the way home! On inspection, the pulleys were out of alignment by nearly 10mm! Now I have fixed that, no more fan belt problems.
My car cooling performance seems unusual, in that performance at idle is quite good, even in a heatwave. My concern is, that on high speed runs it creeps up too far. Having said that, even though the gauge has been near 250 at times, she never boils. But I guess we all want to feel fully confident with our cars, so I shall be reading your article throughly.
Thanks from me and on behalf of all Tiger owners for your contribution.
November 22, 2007 at 4:37 am #61748
I’m going to post 2 separate replies, one for Michael and one for Chris.
Michael this is for you.
In answer to your question about the distance from the fan to the radiator. That would be the leading edge of the fan blade nearest the radiator. When Tom and I did our cooling study, one of the things we tested for was just that. We found that the "sweet spot" was 1"-1 1/8" using our "air-buck" to do the tests (see the Tech Tips section of this Web Site). That was our test for the Sunbeam, but the fan manufactures make general across the board recommendations as well.
As for your question about the electric water pump, we didn"t test any of these, but I’m sure it would have been interesting. Most of the advantage here is in the area of conserving power I think, and not so much in the cooling itself, although sometimes results can be surprising. Andy’s Tiger is still set up to do more tests, but it would have to wait for summer’s hot temps. I don’t know if I’m up for more testing. I’ll keep it in mind for next summer.
November 22, 2007 at 5:26 pm #61749
The Milodon high performance pump we used in our tests was part #16230. The backing plate that came with the pump is actually what helps to make it flow more water. The tolerance around the impellers are much closer than if the plate isn’t used. If it’s not used, the water within the chamber of the timing chain cover is moved, but it’s disrupted, with the disturbance causing cavitation. We did have some clearance problems with this pump; problems with the length of the mounting bolts; and even had to shorten the length of the projecting impeller shaft.
What you said about your problem being more with overheating (or high temperatures) during high speed runs, I’d like to address. There are quite a few things that can cause this. I’m going to list ones that I think are most likely to be the culprits. If you’re sure the water jackets in your engine block, heads, and intake manifold allow good water flow, then you need to be sure the radiator core is clear as well. If all these are patent then there are a few things that may very probably cause this situation (that is good cooling at an idle but overheating at high speeds). 1. Check to be sure the spring is in place in your lower radiator hose, and if it is there, that it effectively can hold the shape of the hose. Not everyone understands the reason for that spring, and remove it, thinking it’s not important. It’s there to hold the shape of the hose and keep it from collapsing as the hose softens with increased engine temperature and increased negative pressure on the hose as engine speed (and therefore water pump speed) increases. 2. If a large or multiple electric fan(s) are being used in front of the radiator, they may actually be restricting airflow through the radiator at high speeds. 3. If this problem only occurreed since you’ve been using the Milodon pump, and it is in fact supposed to have a backing plate used with it, and you’re not, it may not be supplying enough water at high speed for the reason I stated earlier in this reply. This is not likely the situation but may be a possibility.
November 23, 2007 at 9:15 am #61750
I think I have the other Milodon pump, 10229 that is listed for the earlier, 65-67 289. I am still awaiting vendor info to confirm. The flange dimension is about right for the Tiger, so I hope it will fit OK.
An interesting point; the seller stated no backing plate is required. I have seen high flow pumps for sale in UK that use no backing plate so I really need to check this out for certain.
Your Milodon pump is listed for a wider application, for 65-69 289/351W so may not be right for the Tiger? I am guessing this may be why it was difficult to fit? Also, as it has a closed impeller (like mine) so I think there is some uncertainty whether if it is designed to be used with or without a backing plate? Again, just guessing really, looking for any explanations as to why it was so unsuitable.
Re your other pointsd, I did not know about the hose spring, so I will def check that out, thanks. I have an unknown Alu pump, which I presume is stock type, and no electric fans. I think your point about the rad core is probably the most likely explanation. I suspect it is original, if not just old, so a recored rad may be the answer.
If you do any more test runs, you may want to try the Milodon again without the backing plate, or try their other pump if you can get one. If I were more local, you would be welcome to borrow mine of course!
All the best.
November 24, 2007 at 3:45 am #61753
You may want to look for a more modern radiator, and that would be helpful with overall cooling, but if I was betting on the overheating at high speeds, I’d put my money on it being a lower radiator hose problem. Wait until you check it out before making any decisions about the radiator itself. Those old stock radiators aren’t the cause of as many of Tiger owners overheating problems as they’re faulted for ——–read the Tech Tips article closely. Best to solve problems by changing one variable at a time.
November 25, 2007 at 3:34 pm #61757
Chuck, you were right, there is no spring in the bottom hose. It probably disintegrated 20 ears ago!!
I decided to take advantage of the winter break and fit a new clutch. I just took off the hose, so now I know.
Is there anything you recommend I do while the engine is out? I was thinking of fitting tubular headers (to go with my Holley 4 barrell), and maybe a head recon. I dont know if it has ever had a recon of anything. It looks like its never been out since new. But the engine is running well, so I wonder if it is really worth it?
November 26, 2007 at 3:52 am #61758quote V Mad:
You might not want to do the heads if the engine seems to have never been apart. I have found that reconditionling the heads on a high mileage engine will put more pressure on the old rings, and may lead to the rings going away in short order. If it is running OK now, I would suggest just letting it be till it seems tired, and rebuilding the whole engine at the same time.
November 26, 2007 at 9:07 am #61759
Jose, I must admit I am reluctant to mess with it, as it is running well. A full engine recon is probably best if it needs it.
Back to the bottom hose, I just realised that Chucks comments would apply to the American LHD model with the single large hose. In the UK version we have two small hoses, with an Alu adaptor in between, so I dont know if a spring is normally fitted. But the larger of the two hoses is quite flexible, so I think it could collapse under suction conditions.
November 3, 2011 at 3:46 pm #64265warren-gParticipant
Any advice on the minimum distance between the fan and the radiator? Stock beastie with a 3 rox added. Water pump of unknown origin replaced with a modern one for a 289 that measures out the same. My mechanic pal a foreign car specialist says engines move inches and you need them. The beast is lashed down starting at the back with the exhaust system , no hangars to speak of but o ring mounts. Be nice to not floor it and have contact, words of wisdom out there?
Warren in So Cal
November 4, 2011 at 2:53 pm #64267Joel & Karen GriffinParticipant
You need to be aware that there are two types of water pumps open back and closed back ,and all Tigers are pass. side inlet the open back pump nests in the
timing cover. we have used the Miladon pump in the past but now use Stewart Components pumps(escanaba mi) we also run the pump faster than stock to keep the flow up a low RPM’s, more than the Fairmount pully deal, we are building a 260 Tiger now and using a Ford open back pump that we had modified by
Stewart. we also plug the heater and bypass ports and use a modified 180deg Robertshaw thermostat that allows water to pass on warm up. and we should
have said we machine our own pulleys to suit the motor.
November 8, 2011 at 3:17 pm #64272warren-gParticipant
Just got a Bosch unit at the local auto parts store. It looks fine and installed well, but needed a caress with a press as the fan flange did not quite line up with the crank pulley. Too bad when I got it on the small print says made in Ch__a I guess I need glasses and should have seen it earlier. It was 30 bucks less expensive than the one listed at Sunbeam Specialties. The fan has had some contact with the stock fan and the middle section of the steering rack. Parts of the car look unmolested yet some have been changed the block bears the number of a 64 casting date but it is hard to say if the motor mounts were changed, looks like a shimming may be in order,the fun continues. W.
November 8, 2011 at 6:27 pm #64273
Hi Warren, just a FYI on a couple of things in case any of this has not been mentioned before.
As it came from the factory, the block is shimmed up from the motor mounts by the thickness of those little metal heat shield strips and about 1/8 thick washers between the block and the two motor mount holes. Some people have removed the washers to gain air cleaner to hood clearance to accomodate aftermarket high rise intake manifolds. Unfortunately that also lowers the fan end of the motor and can cause the stock fan to hit the rack tube.
Also be careful in changing motor mounts. There are some out there, usually made in China, that would seem to fit but are problems. One that I have encountered is that they are too thin in cross section. The rubber and metal plate cross-section should have an outside dimension of about 1.25 inches. I have bought some said to fit early 260 and 289 Ford motors which are closer to only 1 inch thick. If someone replaced your mounts with these thinner cross-section mounts, your motor is going to set significantly lower. Elsewhere it has been said some of these mounts also do not have the correct angles in their metal stamped parts. I seem to recall reading that the ones from NAPA are okay, and perhaps Anchor as well, but cannot find the source. The 1.25 inch dimension comes from measuring a new set I am about to put in. I have a set of thin ones sitting on a shelf with which to compare!
PS: There is probably a tech tip somewhere about putting counter sunk 5/16 cross bolts through the rubber sandwich part as a reinforcement. If you are not familiar with it and cannot find it, please ask if interested.
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